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Mi’sen's avatar

I’m sure you know this, but also for what it’s worth, the cultivation shamatha (especially in preparation for vipashyana, shamatha-vipashyana, and beyond) plays a very important role in many Vajrayana lineages, including the absorptions, which helps prepare the practitioners mind for deep insight and awakening. There is a lot of subtlety to the differently styles and framing of shamatha (including jhanas), but I don’t think it serves practitioners well to just say ‘oh well they’re interesting phenomenologically but you should really just go for awakening’, as some Nyingma teachers — like other lineages — have even said that the cultivation of shamatha at least to the first jhana (whatever that is framed as), is functionally necessary

Many paths etc, but this sort of way of talking/comparing doesn’t seem that useful compared the the slightly more meta position of exploring attitudes towards different paths which are good at all stages. Fetishising altered states isn’t good, neither is minimising potential functional benefits of cultivating the skills and capacities of mind which lead to altered states and the way to practice with them skilfully.

Anyway, all interesting food for thought! I should read that book, someone else I respect very much recommended it recently

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Joe Schmoe's avatar

So, a couple of things. First, yes I agree that Jhourney is questionable. I say questionable, because maybe they are doing something overall good. It is hard for me to make up my mind here. Also, it is likely that what they are teaching is not "actually" jhana, but a less absorbed (and still useful!) state.

But second, what can we learn by looking at the best historical record we have of what the Buddha actually taught? This historical record is the Pali Canon, and specifically the earliest Suttas, the Suttapitaka, or Basket of Discourses. Scholars typically argue as well that this seems to be a pretty faithful record.

We learn that jhanas are absolutely fundamental to liberation, and in fact there is no substitue. Nowhere in the Suttapitaka does the Buddha talk about two different types of meditation, with one being called Vipassana and the other Jhana. Instead, Vipassana and Jhana are yoked together THROUGH right Samadhi which is defined as the Jhanas. (Vipassana is also a relatively infrequent term, but Jhana is incredibly common).

Later meditative traditions arose which break with the Buddha on this one, and that is fine. But a lot of people within these traditions are not really aware of this historical fact.

Incidentally, the formless realms are not actually considered Jhana, despite the misnomer of calling them "formless jhanas." They play a less central role. It is explicitly said in the Suttapitaka that at least fhe first Jhana is necessary for liberation (see https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN9_36.html). So the anecdote you gave about Ajahn Mun is still consistent with Jhana being necessary (but the formless realms aren't).

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